Abortion-like Worldview of Quiver-limiting Christians

[RileyDad]

Before we get into the fact that many millions of "pro-life" Christians kill their own children with so called "birth control" pills ( even the name implies an affront to God's Sovriegnty), I thougtht I'd throw this out.

About ten years ago a dear brother & co-labourer told me " God will never change the culture's view about abortion until the church changes it's view of children". It resonated with me.

I started doing a little experiment that I soon after discontinued because it was too discouraging. If you are active in pro-life work, you can try it now & probably get the same ( or worse) results.

If you talk to abortion bound Mothers at an American child-killing "clinc" on a Satuday, then go to an average, Conservative "Bible-believing". Evangelical church on Sunday and ask some of the parents ( including the pastor) there why they are limiting the size of their families and you will get frighteningly similar responses .

"I can't afford it" . . . "I want be able to do more for my other children" . . . "I'm not ready for a baby" . . . I, I , I . . . me, me, me . . . stuff, stuff, stuff . . .

This is generally true regardless of denominational or doctrinal bent . The so-called Calvininsts know that God is Sovreign in Salvation -- but often act as if He's not as Sovreign in the womb; preachers that preach faith & trusting in "God's promises" don't extend & apply this to the family; Charismatics & Penecostals search for "gifts" but don't want too many of the Lord's "rewards" ( the "fruit of the womb") . . . etc

This is not to say that there are never legitimate reasons for Christians to stop having children . . .
I know of three families who have been forced to stop having children for siginficant, life threatening situations. There are, I'm sure plenty of different reasons for not having children.

However, this should be the exception. We should look on smaller families in our churches as an oddity, not the other way around.

And I should make sure I include a warning against a sort of "how many children do you have?" legalism used to self-righteously judge our brothers and sisters
( We know a family that has two godly grown daughters -- and seven or eight miscarriages since; on the outside, people see a "normal" family, but God, who "looks at the heart" sees a family trusting Him faithfully ).

BUT, I think my friend was right -- " God will never change the culture's view about abortion until the church changes it's view of children"

We should re-double our efforts to tear down the Planned Parenthood worldview in our churches & Christian families.
May God grant us wisdom; His children discernment; Christian parents the abundant life that comes from dying to self and trusting God for our family size; and may He grant our age a great revival and reformation !

Malachi 4:6; Luke 1:17

[Bob Hardesty]

I have known over the years a number of single people in different christian circles who planned to get married some day, but did not want children. I have said to at least one of them that God said He invented marriage for children(Mal. 2:15), and that for a couple to get married and say 'NO' to children is to say:"God bless our union, but we will define it our way".

My possition is that if someone does not want children, they should not get married and commit sacriledge.
_________________
"The vision often scary,
but never look away.
The picture never changes,
eyesight fades away"
RLH

[Shotgun Minister]

You could avoid this whole arguement and never marry

Mark 12:25
1 Corinthians 7
Luke 20:34-35
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Credo Deus in totus res.

[watchman]

You can't avoid the argument, because some people want the sweets of companionship and physical intimacy, but do not want the responsibility of rearing godly children. And since they have no idea what a blessing it is, and refuse to believe that it is all that God's Word says it is, they want to use marriage for their own selfish purposes, rather than what He created the union for.
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[RileyDad]

bump

[wayimp]

My results have not been as discouraging as you portray.

As men, I think it is difficult to comprehend how responsive women are to peer pressure. When many of these women respond along the lines of "Children are too much pain, trouble, expense, blah, blah, blah..." They are only repeating what they intuitively sense is expected of them from their surrounding culture, husband, family, friends. Deep down, they naturally long to have and to hold their own children, but they are suppressing this desire for the sake of a higher allegiance to whatever they believe improves their social status.

At this point, I tell them how wonderful it is to have children, how they are getting old fast, and better start having children now, or they won’t have anyone to care for them in their old age… I get after them to the point of making them feel ashamed for not having children. Of course they are sometimes offended, “What a jerk! What business is it of yours!” Women hate me anyway, so there is no love lost there. So these little encounters are forgotten, and life goes on… Then, about a year later, lo and behold, I hear that so and so is having a baby. I have seen this time and time again, and so I continue with this tactic of brash confrontation of other men’s wives.

[angelawittman]

Dear Gentlemen,

I think the lie of feminism that women can find satisfaction in other ways rather than being keepers at home and mothers has maimed and destroyed many lives.

It was not until I became a Christian, and God opened my eyes, heart and mind to His word, that I realized children are a blessing from the LORD and feminism is a lie.
_________________
For His Glory,
Angela Wittman

Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain:
but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Proverbs 31:30 KJV

[RealMcCoy]

Early on in my marriage I was given lots of free advice by many people, most of whom were well meaning. I was however completly turned off by some who sought to enlighten me on the sin of "limiting the size of one's family". While I do not deny that scripture is plain on the purpose of the institution of marriage, I do disagree with those who interpret that to mean we are commanded to have as many children as possible, or at least not interfere with nature in that regard.
While plainly giving us instruction to be fruitful and multiply, scripture is silent on the size of one's family. I don't think it should be a topic of discussion. Quite frankly the size of your family is none of my business and in like manner the size of mine is none of anyone else's. You see when we begin to pass judgement on others, especially our brothers and sisters in Christ, we have stepped outside our realm of responsibilty. To say that christians have an abortion like mentality towards the size of family I think is a bit extreme. Are mainstream christians selfish? Probably so; but we are addressing a symptom of a much larger problem here. The problem, it seems to me is, most christians and churches are consummed with themselves and their surroundings rather than Christ. That is the key my freinds. We need to quit worrying about who is not homeschooling or raising large families or voting for the most christian conservative candidate and look to christ for oursleves and our own families and the rest will fall into place.

For my wife and I, we have been unable to have children naturally and have recently been blessed to adopt, but I made myself a promise after the 568th person asked us when we were going to have kids, that I would never ask anyone when they were having kids of how many. This is not meant to sound mean spirited, just blunt discussion I guess.

In Christ,
Trey McCoy

[RileyDad]

Hey, Bro. Trey,

Good to see you here. We should have plenty to talk to on the way to Jackson . .

Basically balanced counsel, but a couple of points.

1) I can tell you from experience that the reverse of your concern is true in most cases. I have gotten way more incredulous, smart comments from Christians through the years about having a large family than I have from non beleivers about having "so many kids".

2) You wrote :

[RealMcCoy]

We shall indeed

First, of course I am not saying that how we live or what we do is of no importance. What I am saying is that I think we can waste a lot of time and energy and possibly even be guilty of meddling in others affairs ( as the apostle Paul warned those in the first century church) to no good end.

Secondly, I am commenting because this is a discussion board and I hope to cause others to see my point of view and in so doing encourage others to not have such a harsh and (in my view) wrong opinion on this topic.

Trey

[watchman]

[CollinH]

Dr. Voddie Baucham presented a startling (to the audience, at least) message on this very subject at the Southern Baptists of Texas State Evangelism Conference in Feb '06. That message, available online here, should be heard by every single person in this country who calls themselves Christian, especially young couples. It's obviously targeted at Southern Baptists, but the lessons are applicable to true believers of all stripes.

[badger]

Howdy Trey.

I am sure that the constant inquiries about children have been a dagger for you. I've seen some folks lose their minds and faith because they could have no children from their own bodies. And I know several who mourn daily that they could have no more. I have seen others take it as their lot from God, with great peacefulness. I certainly have no wish to burden any who are open to God's will, with some sort of 'gain is Godliness' in regards to the fruit of the womb. And truly, I don't believe anyone here is saying such a thing.

But I do think that it is fitting and proper to discuss the theology of marriage, family, and children. I believe it is a terrible shortcoming of many of the churches that it is not a subject of earnest inquiry.............

For myself, I believe that the whole tenor of the scriptures teaches that the fruit of the womb is the gift of God. I suspect that you wish you could have that gifting.

There are plenty of folks who want a convenient number of children, that will fit in with their other plans in life. I think that is sin.

There are some folks who want as many arrows in their quiver as possible. I think that is the attitude closest to God's revealed heart in the scripture. Right now it is a minority view.

There are some folks who are torn with desires for children that God has not given. There are some folks who are torn with a desire for children, who have drastic issues that cause them to fear letting "God be in control".
I don't have much to say to those who want and love children with a biblical view of them, of marriage, of family, of obedience. I am not wise enough to do much more than pray for some. I can counsel against some of the clearly unbiblical practices of fertility mania, and I can counsel against some obvious excessive fearfulness, but there are some places I dare not tread.

If a man has gangrene in his limb, and decides to cut it off...........is he rejecting the biblical duty and common nature that God has given us to nourish and care for his body? I know some faith folks who would argue so.....some of them I respect as people of great desire to please God.........but I cannot agree with the theology.
It is a fearful thing to give up a limb or an eye, and I have an old friend who abandoned his eye, when I believe I would have stuck it out a bit longer.....but he is the one without the eye, and I trust he did not hate having two of them.....

But today there are many whose attitude towards children is as a man who thinks the number of his limbs and organs is a light matter of his desires, comfort, and ambitions. Many such are in the church. Many such think their "spiritual" ambitions are a different matter than another's materialistic ambitions. This is madness. All such folks need to truly repent.

Children are a blessing AND a commandment to those who can lawfully receive them. Scripture is very clear about that. I will not argue every case, but I hope I am a goad in the eye of every soul who thinks they have more right to their own body and life, than the God who gave them their body and life. And to all who just want what they want, when they want it, now.
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But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God.

[RealMcCoy]

Dear Brethren,

I have limited internet use these days and am not always prompt with replies. Forgive me.

I am not particularly fond of this type of forum for discussions of this nature, but a very good friend asked me to participate in some way to this group, so I chose this topic though I knew it would gain me no friends. At any rate, I will not attempt to challenge Watchmen with even one verse of scripture supporting my opinion because there is none. It is my contention that Scripture is silent on this issue.
I hope Watchmen hasen't misunderstood my reason for taking the side that I have. Of course sir, children are indeed a blessing from our great God and are the fruit of the womb and should be viewed and treated as such. Were my wife and I able to conceive, we would most certainly be humbled that God would grant us this gift. (He is sovreign and may yet be pleased to do so).
I am not sure exactly what you mean by "unbiblical abstinence". In many ways I think this issue can be compared to the consumption of achohale and other matters of liberty. Scripture teaches against the abuse of "strong drink" just as it does the abuse of sexual activity outside the bounds of marriage. When I read Song of Solomon I don't get a poem about procreation, rather it is quite risque and bold about a two people in love in the proper context. Now please don't mis-understand me; this is not meant to praise casual or selfish sex,rather my point is just this: scripture must be taken as a whole. We cannot pick for oursleves that causes we wish to champion, there are many good ones. We must be about the fathers business. If for you that is making sure no birth-control is used to further increase the Kingdom, then I am in support of you brother, but do not make a man at fault for something that Scripture is silent to us on.
I must go for now. Thank you for your kind attention,

Trey McCoy

[watchman]

Trey,

Christians who deliberately try to prevent conceiving children often like to THINK that the Bible is silent, but truly it is not.